<- Click to filter by commenter
| 2 |
Why We Use English Signs? Stephen, When you say "In the years to come, I think English will still be the dominate language of the world, just look at Japan in the 70' who was almost the second richest country in the world, but her culture and language are not adopted by the rest of the world." You have to remember that Japan, although the world's second-richest country, has still been a distant second to the USA in GNP since WWII, with a substantially smaller population. Thus using bigbro's "buying power model" (which is applicable, at least to a rough approximation), Japan's cultural reach is still much less than that of US for a long time period, and things like broadcasting and movies out of Japan are a lot less. Still, it's not accurate to say that "her culture and language are not adopted by the rest of the world." I don't know exactly what you mean here, because the culture/language of USA hasn't really been adopted that much either, as I pointed out in my post before-- people tend to stick to their native cultures or adopt elements of a "regional beacon." If you mean that English is widely spoken as a foreign language and US books/films/TV have popularity outside of the US, that's true, but frankly that goes for Japan too. Here in the US Japanese culture-- especially in things like manga and anime-- is a trendsetter for some elements of USA culture. Lots of US students like to study Japanese as do many in Europe-- Japanese culture is truly enormous in California, and since I moved east I've found it to be pretty popular around here too. And in East Asia, Japanese culture is very widespread, all the Japanese TV and music pop-stars, despite the fact that so many people, especially us from Korea, were brutalized during the Japanese occupation. My point above was subtle so I'll restate it: I have nothing against people in East and South Asia becoming more conversant with English and using English on signs and in public places where a lot of tourists gather. At out present historical moment English is the language of the world's most powerful country, and the language in which a lot of interesting culture and useful technology is expressed. What I am arguing vehemently against is this lemming-like stupidity-- yes, stupidity-- that makes people act as if they're "left out," "primitive," or "behind the curve" if they don't speak English like a native. In Korea, many parents used to send their kids to America during their formative years-- separated from their Mom and Dad-- or do this awful procedure to cut the muscle tissue beneath the tongue, b/c they wanted them to speak English without an accent. This is an outrage, and it just shows that too many people are caught up in the fad of the moment. Tomorrow is always another day, folks, and what's hip and important and popular today may be much less so tomorrow. That's why it's important that cultures in developing countries, especially those in East Asia, take pride in and reinforce their own ancient cultures and make sure that they maintain a close connection with them. In the long run, I'm not sure what historians will say about the world in the early 21st century-- probably the USA as the world's sole superpower will be an anomaly, a temporary blip. And if countries jettison their own cultures in favor of the USA-fad-of-the-moment, they'll be left adrift and ruined if that powerful countries is no longer so powerful. Even today, fluent English is useful for a small subset of people in East Asian countries in a subset of jobs that involve a subset of business, tourism, hotel industry, whatever. That's many millions of people, obviously, but this should categorically not lead to drastic changes like the adoption of English as an official language in a country which has been producing great literature, philosophy, and music in Korean for many millennia before the USA came into existence, or even before English materialized as a language. That's just lemming-like stupidity, and forgetting our ancient history while becoming too wrapped up in what may be a passing fad. Wangjianshuo, IMHO China should also restructure its own educational system somewhat-- the Chinese government overemphasizes English way too much in the curriculum. Again, it's fine for people to have a basic familiarity with English, but only a small fraction of students are really going to have the aptitude for language as a main subject, and an even smaller number will actually use English practically for a job when they finish high school and university in China. I frankly believe that China is wasting an enormous amount of time and money on English in the educational system, when the Chinese would be a lot better off using some of those resources in the curriculum for mathematics, science, technology, engineering, and native Chinese culture, which is one of the richest and most ancient in the world. This is categorically not "turning inward" or anything like that-- it's just plain common sense. Just offer upper-level English courses as an elective subject the way they do in Europe, and for those who really like English and want to master it (which will still be many millions of people), fine, but it shouldn't be forced upon people the way China is currently doing it, since the vast majority of people won't have much use for it, and in the time they spent struggling with English they will have therefore not learned another subject that might suit them better and be more useful. What's now going on is just a waste, and again smacks of lemming-like faddishness-- different people have different skills, and if some students prefer focusing on math, science, business, political science, music, art, or engineering rather than English, they should be encouraged to do so. This will also help China to become much better off economically, since it won't waste so many resources teaching a language that the vast majority of students won't take to and won't use beyond a basic familiarity, and it will instead be investing in teaching things like science, engineering, and business that will be more useful and efficient, and also cater to students' natural interests. As a final thought, I should supplement what bigbro has stated by pointing out that a language's importance is also a product of how important its people decide to make it in addition to buying power alone. Simple willpower. Although French isn't all that widely spoken as a first language in comparison to, say, Russian or German, French is still important as a world language in part because the French and Quebecers are so protective of it. And since France has such a rich and vibrant culture, both historically and currently, it has a lot to offer, which makes French a still very popular language. People in China especially have over a billion people who speak Chinese and one of the world's most ancient and richest cultures, and if some Chinese people would simply be more admiring of their own language and cultural achievements-- and stop being so meekly deferential to the fad of the moment-- then Chinese will instantly become even more popular as a world language, I promise. Again, it's fine to put up the road signs and public places also in English, but I feel that too many Chinese people have an inferiority complex about their own language and culture, which they should not have. Remember that the world in many ways is what it is today because of Chinese accomplishments in science, philosophy, and technology from ancient times and Middle Ages that spread to Europe. Also, considering the way Chinese people were brutally treated and massacred by the British during the Opium Wars during the 1800s-- even worse than both they and we Koreans were treated by the Japanese later on-- the Chinese would be foolish to become too infatuated with a culture that still carries that historical baggage. Many English-speaking people will look down on Chinese culture if Chinese people cater too easily to them. As Kwong said, anyone who's been in China for 5 years should not be allowed to force a business meeting full of Chinese people to be conducted in English only. Also as Kaili was pointing out, English-speaking people will naturally tend to learn Chinese more efficiently and better if Chinese people themselves regard Chinese as being more important for them to learn-- simple psychology at work here. For my part, I love to speak and write in English and I've even won literary prizes in it, but I never, ever consider English language or culture to be superior to my Korean homeland. They're different and complement each other, not superior and inferior. If we Asians just show our own culture and languages that respect, more Americans will start learning our language and culture, too. I'd certainly feel much more comfortable if more Americans start learning the languages of places they visit, rather than expecting everyone to roll out a red carpet for them. |
| 1 |
Is English Skill That Important Dear Nick, No offense here, but I have to disagree with just about everything in your post. I'm a Korean-American who's traveled thru much of the world, both as my parents moved around and on my own for business and vacation. If there's one thing I've learned with certainty, it's that this claim that people utter all the time-- that "English is the international language of business, pop culture, diplomacy, and just about everything else"-- is totally false. TOTALLY BOGUS. In fact, the more I hear this myth about English taking over the world, the more I become convinced that it's a thinly veiled attempt at commercial imperialism by the USA and UK, a way to pry loose and ruin longstanding business relationships that many non-English speaking countries have with each other so as to draw them into the commercial sphere of the US, UK, and other English-speaking countries. Oh, and also to force the poorer countries of the world to bear the cost of language-learning and translation, so that the US in particular gets to boost its profit margin even higher. English is popular as an international language but not nearly to the extent that people play it up, yet USAers in particular repeat this lie so often that many people become duped into believing that it's a truth, to the advantage of USA companies and at the expense of home-grown firms. I heard a story on the radio recently about an American businessman-- Jeffrey Jones-- who's actually pushing hard to make English the official language of South Korea, claiming that he's acting benevolently in Korea's self-interest and increasing their national wealth. It made my blood boil to hear this carpetbagging jerk from the USA try to push something that would essentially ruin my country's ancient culture and split us from our own history, and even more angry that there are apparently enough gullible idiots in the Korean government and school system to help this guy along. Look, I'm all for Koreans doing the English-immersion programs and improving their command of English (and other languages too), but I'm disgusted by this misguided infatuation with the language. I for one think that Koreans would benefit more by learning Japanese and Mandarin, since these are the two countries that Koreans will predominantly be doing business with. China particularly will be very powerful and in 20 years Mandarin may be even more important than English both on the Asian Pacific coast and worldwide, so it would be foolish to get obsessed with English as a foreign language at the expense of Mandarin. Nick, you yourself point out that French used to be the ideal language, which goes to show that "world languages" change over all the time, and we shouldn't get caught up in the fad of the moment. I spent a good deal of time in various countries of Europe, and while there are a lot of people who can speak good English there, English isn't nearly as much of a common standard as a lot of people pretend. In most of southern and southeastern Europe, places like Italy, Romania, and Greece, they tend to use French as the lingua franca, not English. In most of northern and eastern Europe, in Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, Finland, Estonia, and many of the other former Soviet Republics, German is the lingua franca much more than English. Some of the best German literature and movies these days come from Eastern Europe! German is also the main second language in Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, and some other places farther away from Germany because of all the immigrant and business contacts between Germany and those countries. In much of Central Asia and some other former Soviet republics, Russian is still a lingua franca. (And a lot of Russians speak perfect German and French and actively use them, again with a lot of Russian immigrants going to France and Germany recently.) In North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, French is more of a lingua franca than English, and in East Africa it's Swahili. In India English is not widely spoken-- I've been to India and while some elites do speak it, Tamil is a sort-of lingua franca for the south while Hindi is the lingua franca for the north and center. (I've actually seen statistics showing that Hindi is spoken by millions more people than English, and in a lot of different countries.) Spanish is the lingua franca for Latin America. The point being that in the EU French and German are both shaping up as important lingua francas, with Russian, Swahili, Hindi, and Spanish having that role elsewhere, and probably Mandarin soon in East Asia. Nick, you claimed that "English is not the world language because of america. Britain established english in many places of the world during the colonial period." That's totally wrong. In the vast majority of places that Britain ruled, they are not using English as their principal or official language. In Singapore English is co-official, it's also co-official in African countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe (though not very widely spoken), and of course English is used in the white settler colonies like Australia, but in most former Brit colonies they've switched back to their indigenous languages. In Burma, Malaysia and Pakistan for example they may use English at times as a second-language but English is definitely not the main language used. As I pointed out in India, Hindi is official and Hindi and Tamil share lingua franca status in different regions of the country. Up to the fall of the British Empire after World War 2, English wasn't very widely used, and so the popularity of English today is entirely a result of the US, American business, military and pop culture particularly. If US gets weak for whatever reason, English won't be nearly as widespread. Nick, you also claim that "English is simply an easy language to learn." This is simply outrageous and totally wrong. I've talked to a lot of Japanese and Koreans who say that English is extremely difficult to learn-- in fact, most Japanese and Koreans say that German is a lot easier since they have similar grammar structure. English has a totally nonsensical spelling and difficult pronunciation, plus it has some very complicated grammar in many places, and vocabulary that's all over the place. Asian languages by contrast (particularly Chinese) have very simple grammar, no tenses or weird changes of verbs, nouns, or pronouns, plus a rich but easy-to-learn vocabulary. You go on to say that "I know many people in Shanghai who are self taught (in English). Something that would be almost impossible with Mandarin. Because of the tonal qualities of Chinese, Japanese and other asian languages it makes it very hard for europeans and americans to speak these languages properly." Again, totally false. I know a large number of Americans who can speak fluent Chinese, Japanese and Korean and who in some cases are self-taught (usually spent some time in East Asia too of course to get fluent). Some Americans and Europeans have studied many foreign languages, and they've told me that Chinese is actually the easiest of all to learn because of the very simple grammar and easy-to-learn vocabulary. They're not bothered by the tones nearly as much as you think. It's unfamiliar at first but you get used to it. Remember that tones aren't in Korean either, but lots of Koreans and Korean-Americans learn Chinese dialects, and it's not too hard to do it. You also say that “The romance languages like english, spanish, french etc are very similiar so they can pick up english quickly and we share a common alphabet. The written languages of asia especially china are not aligned with the spoken language making it even more difficult.” First of all Nick, English is not a Romance language, it’s a Germanic language. Second, Chinese written language is aligned with the spoken language (each character consists of a phonetic as well as a meaning radical), and if anything the Chinese written system actually makes it a lot easier for Asian countries to communicate with each other, since they can use the writing even if they don’t speak each other’s language. It does take some years to master the writing but again, it’s not as hard as you make it out to be. Most of the characters are pretty unique and it’s not too tough to learn them and tell them apart. In addition for many purposes both native and non-native Chinese speakers just use pinyin Romanization of Chinese which is also popular, so Chinese has the advantage that it can be written both with the characters and with the pinyin phonetic romanization, and people understand it. You say that “In asia in particular there are so many numerous dialects which are so different they are like a foreign language to each other. Take cantonese versus mandarin. As stated above english is a simple common format for everyone to be able to communicate with.” First of all, as someone who’s been to UK and Australia I can tell you that there are many places in those English-speaking countries where an American won’t know what in the world anyone is saying, since the dialect is so strong. Second, why do you assume that English would be a better common format than any of the Asian languages? As far as a common language goes, East Asian countries have a strong historical connection to Chinese culture and language and in fact over 40% of the words in Korean, Japanese, and some other languages come from Chinese originally. Plus the cultural features of Chinese language are a lot closer for us. So it’s much easier for us to use Mandarin as a common language than English there. On the other side of the coin, in many parts of USA we don’t even use English as the main language. In a lot of states, including in California where I grew up and other states that used to be part of Mexico, Spanish is used more than English, and you’d better know it. (In my middle school our teachers all told us that Spanish was the language that everybody had to learn and speak fluently to get ahead.) The one place where I agree with you is here—“The bottom line is the more people can communicate with each other the better off we will all be and the safer the world will be.” Yes, I agree. But this has to work going both ways. I’m sick of so many of my fellow Americans being so lazy that they expect everybody in foreign countries to speak English to them—they should at least make some effort to learn the main languages of the places they visit. I think it’s fine that people in Asia and Europe learn English—I think it’s also fine and helpful that many of them get fluent in French, German and Hindi too. But in return, we Americans have to stop being so lazy and spoiled about languages ourselves. If more Americans actually made the effort to learn French, German, Spanish, Hindi, Chinese, Swahili, and many other important languages, this would help communication just as much as other countries learning American English. (I’m obviously not saying that every American should learn 10 languages—I’m saying that learning foreign languages should be more valued in general for Americans, and each American should work hard to get fluent in at least one or two foreign languages, the way most Europeans and Asians do.) My parents taught me Korean but I also worked hard to learn Spanish and German at school, and I take a lot of pride in speaking them. In return, people from other countries appreciate it a lot when I speak their languages rather than demanding that they speak mine all the time. Communication goes in two directions, and we Americans need to do more on our side of the bargain. In addition to other advantages, it would also help Americans to stop being so narrow-minded. A lot of our stupid foreign policy mistakes and arrogant actions recently are probably the result of a self-centeredness, the fact that many Americans think the world revolves around them. We'll help ourselves as well as the rest of the world by breaking out of this. |